Entry: Lazy Blogger Monday, May 03, 2004



It's obvious that I'm not holding up my end here in the blogosphere (I read that word in one of the many recent articles on blogging that I've seen). I'm supposed to keep updating and updating all the time. Well, I haven't had time, and that's okay. A brief on what I've been thinking about;

I just finished Martín Prechtrel's book, Secrets of the Talking Jaguar, which was spectacular. Prechtel is the child of a Swiss father, a Huron Indian mother, who grew up on a Pueblo reservation in New Mexico, and through a series of strange (and slightly magical) events ended up living in the Guatamalan village of Santiago Atitlan. There, he studied with a well known Shaman (who called him to the village). This book was spectacular, as it was a firsthand account of a sustainable culture.

Many of the Mayans who lived in this village still practiced the traditional ways up until the Guatamalan 'civil war' tore their community apart. At that point, Prechtel was tasked by his mentor to bring a piece of the Village Heart (a sacred bundle of objects) to the North, into the land of the dead, where he could (hopefully) carry the ancient ways of life and spirituality on, and bring life back to the hearts of us North Americans.

It's a grand book. It gave me some fantastic ideas about cultural homoginization, and why it might be a bad idea. Briefly; as western civilized culture moves into a place, some people embrace it, others don't. Eventually, those that don't are coopted or killed, because our culture interferes with their's. That's why Wal-Marts, missionaries, and other western incursions into native cultures are harmful. It has nothing to do with the segment that wants them. It has to do with the largely ignored segments that don't. More later. I have to go to work.

   9 comments

Ant
May 10, 2004   06:43 AM PDT
 
"We don't need these things to live." If life is a matter of nothing but what we *need* to live, there are a few other things we can do away with:

- the cerebrum. One of my travel mates is a vet, specializing in livestock. She told me that a cow has the smallest possible brain able to maintain life, relative to its body mass. We do not need to be able to think; every other species gets by just fine without human-type thought processes

- "They don't actually make us happy". Irrelevant. The problem is not whether or not they do - the problem is anyone who believes that they should and are somehow failing at it. Happiness and misery derive from the same source: the person feeling that way. Happiness is a choice. So is misery. Most people choose to be miserable. Lack or abundance of infrastructure doesn't mean a damn thing if they wish to continue to choose to be miserable.

I call for an elimination of our societies' infrastructure. All roads, electrical lines, fuel distillation plants, trains, fiber optic cables, and other trappings of civilization should be scrapped. They should not be replaced. We don't need these things to live. They don't actually make us happy. A recent study found that 71% of Americans would consider themselves "disengaged clock-watchers" (Mother Jones, May/June 2004). They aid in the destruction of the planet.

- "Humans lived for 100,000 years without this stuff, and there was no such thing as rape, no such thing as torture, no such thing as war (in the way you understand war)."

Please give some evidence. There was also a lack of a written historical record, so that's a bit of a moot point. What backs up this assertion?

If you're thinking of Jensen's example of the PNG tribe who threw insults at each other, note that he focused on American Aboriginals and that this is the only occasion in which he went farther afield. Presumably, that's how far he had to go to find an example.

History from westerners who encountered aboriginals is also full of more violent encounters - and no, that's not all because of those bad damn westerners.

- "Life wasn't perfect. People died young, in drought years there wasn't enough food, and we worked really hard."

And it sucked. So people learned to grow food, so they could store it for lean years. They assured the basics, so they could spend more time at other pursuits. Or maybe I'm just sick of listening to Americans whinge, when their idea of hardship is a minimum-wage job.

"But we worked hard for ourselves. The fruit of our labor was directly connected to our well being."

My dad is a contractor. He works for himself. I might be employed by a company, but I ultimately work for myself, because I also ensure that my life follows what I wish it to follow. Anyone - especially in the US - can work for themselves. It's just that most of them believe that it was supposed to be easy, and that's bullshit. It's hard - but it's worth it. It's just up to the person to decide what they're willing to do.

If someone doesn't like what they do for work, especially in the US, they can always do something else. Spare me anything about tough times or lack of jobs. People in the US have a greater amount of self-determination than just about anywhere else in the world. It's just that too many people surrender it.

- "And we had relationships, not just with each other, but with the land itself."

Please. Farmers have relationships with the land. My pipeline-contractor dad does. Hell, even miners do. They just have a different relationship from what you or Jensen think they should. In most of those cases, though, I'd wager they have a closer, and probably more honest relationship with the land than most would be comfortable admitting.

And now it's time to eat. Thank goodness for cheap internet, even near the Himalayas.
Dig
May 7, 2004   10:48 AM PDT
 
I don't want you to think I'm putting you off, Pete. I'm working on your thought experiment. I should have something posted over the weekend. While I'm working on it, why don't you tell us a little bit about yourself. How did you find this site? Are you a friend of a friend, or did you just chance upon it? I don't get much trafffic, you know. After all- we are the lunatic fringe.
pete
May 5, 2004   11:58 AM PDT
 
Well, Dig - I'm sorry that I assumed that by wishing the destruction or removal of societies infastructure that you wished for some sort of utopia. But here's the big, REALLY big problem with your idea - 99% of the people here or anywhere else are going to tell you that you are on the lunatic fringe. People developed the trappings of society because they didn't like the way they were living. They did so to improve the quality of life, to insure they didn't suffer from mass starvation, and didn't die so young. Consequently they are not just going to scrap the whole thing - even if they could.

"Humans lived for 100,000 years without this stuff, and there was no such thing as rape, no such thing as torture, no such thing as war (in the way you understand war)."

This is a BIG delusion on your part, dude. Seriously - you think there weren't rapes? You think there wasn't torture? How does my having electricity make me more likely to rape or torture someone? Similarly, the model you are planning for living requires living in small little groups, large groups require proper sanitation...etc. So while wars between these small groups obviously didn't involve hundreds of thousands of deaths, they did most likely involve a substantial portion, if not the majority of the losing group dying or being raped, or tortured - or hell, all three.

The trappings of our society are the product of the evolution of humanity. You can't turn back the clock. Every step up to where we are now was a very small step. However, like a snowball rolling down a hill, once it starts it gets progressively harder to stop. Your group gets a little bigger, and you need sanitation, for sanitation, you need irrigation, for irrigation you need some amount of engineering (and a grip-load of slaves to do all the grunt work), and so on and so on. Many little "improvements" over time lead to where we are now.

There is a certain amount of hipocracy involved in your concept here. These ideas you have come to you because of your life of relative priveledge. You only got to read the books you've read because you didn't have to toil in a field 18 hours a day to get enough food to not starve to death in the winter. There's also the fact that millions of people live around the world in much the way you think of as ideal, however they would glady trade places with you. And I also would venture the guess that they would not immediately begin talking about how we should tear this all down and move back to huts and small unter/gatherer tribes.

You however, if you so chose, could give up your computer - give up your website - give up your house - give up your store bought food, clothing, and all these other terrible trappings of modern life, and attempt to live in the manner that you have deemed ideal. Who knows - maybe you'll provide such a great example more people will want to follow suit? Whats actually stopping you from doing so, if such a life was so ideal? Admittedly you couldn't get away with it in America due to our tax system, as well as other hurdles, but I imagine you could find somewhere in Canada to do it, or somewhere else in the world. What's stopping you? It's kinda tough to sit at the computer and convince me that we should destroy all the infrastructure of modern society (and in the process, kill a really large portion of people) when you aren't willing to be the first to give it all up. Keep in mind that you are talking about forcing a change on people that will kill a good amount of them, whether they want that change or not - thats not really such a liberal idea now is it?

Lastly, just because I have a disdain for the liberal fringe (and you are firmly planted in that category - although probably not a bad guy in person), does not mean that I am a social conservative. Nor that I support a constitutional amendment banning gay marriage. I just think that floating around ideas like the ideas this site espouses make liberals look bad. It makes actual progressive change more difficult because it provides a nice straw man of the demented crack-pot liberal to use for target practice by the right. Progress is what we need to work on. Building a sustainable future does not mean tearing down everything and starting over. Thats casting everything in black and white and ignoring the fact that in many areas modern life is considerably better than scraping to get by in the middle of the jungle. But you are going to live a very unhappy life if you can't let go of this ideal, and instead work to make the future better. Fantasizing about the downfall of societies infastructure is not helping - its just dreaming about throwing out the baby with the bathwater so to speak.


Dig
May 5, 2004   10:52 AM PDT
 
This isn't about Utopian ideals, Pete. I agree that there has never been a Utopia outside of fiction. I don't want a Utopia.

That doesn't mean that I shouldn't suggest better ways to live. Arguing that I'm not making a good point because I want to see some Utopia spring up is asinine. People suggest better ways to structure society all the time. The social conservatives (which I assume you identify with, given your disdain for a so-called 'American Liberal Guilt Complex') would like to see an amendment to the constitution outlawing same sex marriage. Do I say that they're crying chicken little and asking for Utopia? No. They know what they want. So do I.

I call for an elimination of our societies' infrastructure. All roads, electrical lines, fuel distillation plants, trains, fiber optic cables, and other trappings of civilization should be scrapped. They should not be replaced. We don't need these things to live. They don't actually make us happy. A recent study found that 71% of Americans would consider themselves "disengaged clock-watchers" (Mother Jones, May/June 2004). They aid in the destruction of the planet. Humans lived for 100,000 years without this stuff, and there was no such thing as rape, no such thing as torture, no such thing as war (in the way you understand war).

Life wasn't perfect. People died young, in drought years there wasn't enough food, and we worked really hard. But we worked hard for ourselves. The fruit of our labor was directly connected to our well being. And we had relationships, not just with each other, but with the land itself.
pete
May 5, 2004   10:00 AM PDT
 
Better thought out, but "not quite there?" Thats nice. I really wonder what that means. Not quite 100% thought out? This coming from one of the authors of this site is rather amusing to say the least?

Is it habit to skip over any issues raised and instead just quip about your (alledged) intellectual superiority? I see glaring holes in most of your "arguments", however instead of addressing any of the ones I've raised you just act condescending.

I await the properly rationalized and 100% thought out response to my "challenge". I'm fairly certain I know the answer, but I look forward to watching you try to squirm around admitting that you just have a sort of deep seated guilt at being American and that it taints how you look at everything.

I don't mean that to come off as being some sort of "you're anti-american" - because that would just make it too easy on you. America has done a lot of fucked up shit. But I just happen to think that you far too frequently take demonstrations of the darker side of human existence and pin it to American/Western culture/civilization/whatever, instead of just accepting the fact that people do some dispicable things. They always have, and they always will. There are no utopias, and there never were - anywhere - ever.
Dig
May 4, 2004   11:42 PM PDT
 
Better thought out than your last rant. Still not quite there, but you're challange - the thought experiment - is interesting. I'll get to work on it. Until then, a question.

If what we're talking about isn't worth while, why is it worth while to respond? No one is twisting your arm.
pete
May 4, 2004   12:13 PM PDT
 
Any point I may have missed, was missed strictly because it was never made.

What exactly is "American Culture?"

Is it the culture of the Native Americans? Or of the Irish immigrants? Or Russian immigrants? Or Japanese immigrants? Or is it the big blend of culture we get when they all mix? Can you even name a sign of cultural significance that doesn't trace back to another country?

After reading this little diatribe of a site, I can only come to the conclusion that in your mind "American Culture" is some sort of amorphic collection of things you don't like about the world, that you choose to blame on American corporations, politicians, citizens, or anyone else who is the closest scapegoat at the time. However, for the most part it's a bunch of rambling and chicken-little hysteric ranting into the wind at no particular wrong, no particular perpetrator of that wrong, and offering no solution in the slightest.

Cultures/Civilizations/Tribes what have you have warred and destroyed each other since the dawn of human history. Sometimes they choose to live peacefully, sometimes they don't. Some people in other countries drink coke and eat at mc donalds because they want to, not because someone is out to take their culture over by force. Much the same way I have chinese food sometimes because I like it.....not because anyone twists my arm and forces me to try and assimilate a part of chinese culture.

With the ease of travel these days, cultures are going to mix more and more...and clearly the more dominant cultures are going to be, well, more dominant. But thats just how the world works dude. Africans used to sell other Africans from weaker tribes into slavery, Native American tribes used to slaughter other tribes, and so on.

I mean, I assume you point must be something a little more complex than "can't we all just get along" - but at this point I really fail to see what it could be. Essentially you have a site here that can be summed up as "we don't live in a utopia - nope we really don't - this isn't utopic, either is this, either is this, either is this....the sky is falling and we'll all die!!!!"

Your solution it seems is to look through rose colored glasses at select subsections of the past whos inhabitants more or less met your expectations of a sort of psuedo-utopic lifestyle, and then show how "Western" or "American" or any other very broad influence has destroyed it, without realizing that it wasn't really there to begin with.

Maybe you need to think before you write? Just as a thought experiment, try thinking about how the world would be without "western" or "american" influence? Would it be perfect and utopian? If so - you're clearly delusional. If not, why the constant harping on "western" or "american" culture? Just the standard liberal american guilt complex?
Diginhalation
May 4, 2004   10:18 AM PDT
 
You're missing the point. It's great when cultures mix. What's bad is when cultures take eachother over by force, one destroying the other.

And it's not how things have been forever. It's how things have been for 10,000 of our hundreds of thousands of years of human history. Cultures mixed, sure, but they didn't wipe one another out. They lived together.

What I'm arguing against is a global manifest destiny. That Americans (and other westerners) somehow think they have a right to go to other parts of the world with their religions, companies, and shopping centers, and convince the rest of the people to live like us.

I live in a neighborhood with a pretty diverse population, and I am frinds with people from various cultures and countries. They would never try to convince me to live like they do. My black friends don't try to make me black. My Mexican friends don't try to make me a Mexican. My Asian friends don't try to make me an Asian. But my American friends seem to want the whole world to be American.

Think before you type, Pete.
pete
May 4, 2004   08:50 AM PDT
 
Totally! Stop the mixing of races!!!

I hate when darkies move into my neighborhood with their "culture" if you call it that...loud music, lowered cars, and hair salons giving weaves!

Similarly, I imagine they would hate it if I moved to africa. Keep everything the way it used to be! Don't mix races, cultures, or anything...it's bad for everyone.

OR

You are an idiot. Races and cultures are going to mix, they always have mixed, and there is not a goddamn thing you can do about it. So act intellectual, scratch you beard and ponder it all you want, but to everyone else it's just how thing have been FOREVER.

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